CDR Audio Quality Vs. Burning Speed
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| Posted by | Steve Burdick |
| Posted on | 18/04/02 13:11 |
| Number of views | 7065 |
CDR AUDIO QUALITY VS. BURNING SPEED
Does a CD-R burner's speed compromise the audio quality of files? I know there is a noticeable difference when burning 'audio" CD-Rs (i.e., playable on regular CD players) at different speeds, but what about when it's data (WAV, AIFF, or some other format)?
- Andre, Tokyo, Japan
The quality should not change regard-less of burn speed. You're putting the same info on the disc, just at a different rate. The ideal speed is often 2x because of the laser affecting adjacent tracks (heat). You can burn at 24x if your computer, burner, and disc can support that speed.
- mastemfool, Annapolis, MD
In my experience, burning at a higher rate increases the percentage of burned CD-Rs that wind up as coasters (either won't play, or are covered with digital noise). I've personally had good luck burning at 4x or slower, and bad luck burning at higher rates. It probably depends on your computer's processor, amount of memory, hard drive speed, CD-R drive, and other factors.
- DougP, Oakland, CA
My experience confirms what Doug said. Also, data CDs seem to be less critical as they are always read by computer drives, unlike audio CDs, which have to be read on any kind of cheap device. For general audio, I burn at 4x, for masters 2x, and for data as fast as I can - but always run the verify option and always clone everything.
- Emile, Montreal, Canada
My Sonic system has two of the old Sony CDW 900's for burning PCM audio CDs. Two-times seems to sound best for the track (I'm told the laser burns hotter and there's less error correction needed). Single speed seems to be the best way to go if it's a pop mix with the vocals out front. (I don't know why.) Meanwhile, I have a Microboards 8x CD tower and I swear the 8x copies from a master CD sound better than the master (mastered at either speed) from which they were copied. I didn't believe it at first, but I love to see peoples faces when we're A/B'ing the CDs.
- bdbklyn, Los Angeles, CA
I've had no problems burning audio at 8x with my TEAC CD-R drive, nor have I had issues at 4x with my SCSI Panasonic. I think the best thing you can do is burn at the drive's optimal rate - if you have a 12x CD-R drive, then burn everything at 12x unless it's one of those 'up to a certain speed" drives that depends on system factors. I've heard of people actually having problems burning at 2x with drives that support faster rates; the problems were correct-ed by increasing the burn speed.
- Dylan Walters, Portland, OR
The burning speed may influence jitter. Bob Katz wrote in a letter on his site www.digido.com: '...A large group of mastering engineers and critical listeners agree that CDs cut in different ways tend to sound different. The CD differs from other storage media in many ways, but the critical point is that the timing of the output clock and the speed of the spinning disc are related. The output of the CD player is a clocked interface, and the data are clocked off the CD disc in a 'linear' fashion, one block of data after another. A buffer is used, which theoretically cleans up the timing to make it regular again, and, for the most part, it does.
'A lot of this is theory...no one has proved it as fact. And there may be more than one mechanism causing jitter taking place.
'To obtain jitter in the low picosecond region requires extremely accurate timing. Any leakage current (interference) between the servo mechanism controlling the speed of the spinning disc and the crystal oscillator controlling the output of the buffer may destabilize the crystal oscillator enough to add jitter to the clock signal. This does not change the data, by the way. If the servo is working harder to deal with a disc that has irregularly spaced pits or pits that are not clean, perhaps leakage from the servo power affects the crystal oscillator. It doesn't take much interference to alter a clock by a tiny amount.
'This jitter is 'ephemeral,' though, because you can copy this data (irrelevant to the clock) and then play it back again from a more steady medium...and make it sound 'good' again. This is not a permanent problem."
I think every disc burner has a certain speed where irregularity is minimized, but I don't know how to prove it.
- adebar, Wiesbaden, Germany
Does a CD-R burner's speed compromise the audio quality of files? I know there is a noticeable difference when burning 'audio" CD-Rs (i.e., playable on regular CD players) at different speeds, but what about when it's data (WAV, AIFF, or some other format)?
- Andre, Tokyo, Japan
The quality should not change regard-less of burn speed. You're putting the same info on the disc, just at a different rate. The ideal speed is often 2x because of the laser affecting adjacent tracks (heat). You can burn at 24x if your computer, burner, and disc can support that speed.
- mastemfool, Annapolis, MD
In my experience, burning at a higher rate increases the percentage of burned CD-Rs that wind up as coasters (either won't play, or are covered with digital noise). I've personally had good luck burning at 4x or slower, and bad luck burning at higher rates. It probably depends on your computer's processor, amount of memory, hard drive speed, CD-R drive, and other factors.
- DougP, Oakland, CA
My experience confirms what Doug said. Also, data CDs seem to be less critical as they are always read by computer drives, unlike audio CDs, which have to be read on any kind of cheap device. For general audio, I burn at 4x, for masters 2x, and for data as fast as I can - but always run the verify option and always clone everything.
- Emile, Montreal, Canada
My Sonic system has two of the old Sony CDW 900's for burning PCM audio CDs. Two-times seems to sound best for the track (I'm told the laser burns hotter and there's less error correction needed). Single speed seems to be the best way to go if it's a pop mix with the vocals out front. (I don't know why.) Meanwhile, I have a Microboards 8x CD tower and I swear the 8x copies from a master CD sound better than the master (mastered at either speed) from which they were copied. I didn't believe it at first, but I love to see peoples faces when we're A/B'ing the CDs.
- bdbklyn, Los Angeles, CA
I've had no problems burning audio at 8x with my TEAC CD-R drive, nor have I had issues at 4x with my SCSI Panasonic. I think the best thing you can do is burn at the drive's optimal rate - if you have a 12x CD-R drive, then burn everything at 12x unless it's one of those 'up to a certain speed" drives that depends on system factors. I've heard of people actually having problems burning at 2x with drives that support faster rates; the problems were correct-ed by increasing the burn speed.
- Dylan Walters, Portland, OR
The burning speed may influence jitter. Bob Katz wrote in a letter on his site www.digido.com: '...A large group of mastering engineers and critical listeners agree that CDs cut in different ways tend to sound different. The CD differs from other storage media in many ways, but the critical point is that the timing of the output clock and the speed of the spinning disc are related. The output of the CD player is a clocked interface, and the data are clocked off the CD disc in a 'linear' fashion, one block of data after another. A buffer is used, which theoretically cleans up the timing to make it regular again, and, for the most part, it does.
'A lot of this is theory...no one has proved it as fact. And there may be more than one mechanism causing jitter taking place.
'To obtain jitter in the low picosecond region requires extremely accurate timing. Any leakage current (interference) between the servo mechanism controlling the speed of the spinning disc and the crystal oscillator controlling the output of the buffer may destabilize the crystal oscillator enough to add jitter to the clock signal. This does not change the data, by the way. If the servo is working harder to deal with a disc that has irregularly spaced pits or pits that are not clean, perhaps leakage from the servo power affects the crystal oscillator. It doesn't take much interference to alter a clock by a tiny amount.
'This jitter is 'ephemeral,' though, because you can copy this data (irrelevant to the clock) and then play it back again from a more steady medium...and make it sound 'good' again. This is not a permanent problem."
I think every disc burner has a certain speed where irregularity is minimized, but I don't know how to prove it.
- adebar, Wiesbaden, Germany
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We measure several different error rates on discs after they are burned when our audio customers require it. Generally, there is NO significant difference between audio at 1x or 24x, so long as the original media is good quality (some batches of discs don't create good copies regardless of burn speed and some generate more errors at higher speeds - this is the fault of the quality of the dye, stressed polycarbonate or impurities in the polycarb - not the burn speed).
When high speed burns wind up as coasters it's usually because the PC can't feed data to the burner as fast and as smoothly as required.
On reference playback equipment, experienced listeners can nearly always distinguish differences between different discs. They can identify when we play a disc again or if it is a different disc. Ask them to pick the original master from 4 discs and they cannot tell which is master and which is a copy. Results are almost random. (We were curious and kept records for 3 months and only 18 out of 78 people correctly identified the master)
In conclusion, we don't worry about burnspeed at all even when producing the most quality critical masters.
When high speed burns wind up as coasters it's usually because the PC can't feed data to the burner as fast and as smoothly as required.
On reference playback equipment, experienced listeners can nearly always distinguish differences between different discs. They can identify when we play a disc again or if it is a different disc. Ask them to pick the original master from 4 discs and they cannot tell which is master and which is a copy. Results are almost random. (We were curious and kept records for 3 months and only 18 out of 78 people correctly identified the master)
In conclusion, we don't worry about burnspeed at all even when producing the most quality critical masters.
Posted by Antenne on Friday 19 April 2002 12:44
Since my new Yamaha has a "Audio Master Recording" mode I use it whenever possible (the available space is reduced to 63/68min for a 74/80min medium).
The writing speed is 4x in this mode. I think (hope) that Yamaha knows what they are doing. Fact is that higher recording speeds result in dropping quality of the pits written (not very accurate at the edges) due to the laser switching on/off at high speed is the problem. It could result in more Jitter ect. which was the reason for the special recording mode of The CDRW3200 (and with an update the 2200 too). So far so good - but - an influence is still in the recording media which is optimized to an certain speed (I assume). So I can not believe that a CD-R witch is sold with the labeling of 1x..40x (or 48x the latest) is equally suited for all speeds (esp. the lower ones).
Volkmar Lühne - Germany
The writing speed is 4x in this mode. I think (hope) that Yamaha knows what they are doing. Fact is that higher recording speeds result in dropping quality of the pits written (not very accurate at the edges) due to the laser switching on/off at high speed is the problem. It could result in more Jitter ect. which was the reason for the special recording mode of The CDRW3200 (and with an update the 2200 too). So far so good - but - an influence is still in the recording media which is optimized to an certain speed (I assume). So I can not believe that a CD-R witch is sold with the labeling of 1x..40x (or 48x the latest) is equally suited for all speeds (esp. the lower ones).
Volkmar Lühne - Germany
Posted by terry on Tuesday 14 May 2002 02:53
Sound quality should not be affected by the speed of the recording unless: 1) the rated speed is less than the recorded speed. In that case the dye may not react fast enough and create more errors, or 2) the speed is too slow 1X, 2X, even 4X for faster reacting dyes used in high speed media. When manufacturers skimped on gold as a reflective surface there were cases in which varying output from reflectivity could modulate a signal at slow speeds, but everyone uses silver or silver alloy now and that is no longer a problem. Running a drive at its fastest speed will burn out a laser faster, but a moderate speed is better because there will be less thermal drift than at slow speeds.
Memorex's website has got some great info in a pdf called "Optical Media Guide." All this info is there plus a lot more. Media Sciences is also a great source of accurate info.
Memorex's website has got some great info in a pdf called "Optical Media Guide." All this info is there plus a lot more. Media Sciences is also a great source of accurate info.
I was believing that is true and also i tried to prove it. I took 2 cd's.
First cd was burned with a 4x sony scsi cd-r and the second with a samsung ide 24x cd-rw. I connect a very sensitive polymeter on the amplifier and the results on the voltage was exactly the same. I didn't manage to prove it because is wrong.
First cd was burned with a 4x sony scsi cd-r and the second with a samsung ide 24x cd-rw. I connect a very sensitive polymeter on the amplifier and the results on the voltage was exactly the same. I didn't manage to prove it because is wrong.
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